The Battle Barn

Just a quick question.

If I choose 4 wolf guard models and split them into squads (as per the "Pack Leaders" rule) would they still take up a slot in the force organization chart?

I assume yes, but when split, wolf guard become the unit they joined (i.e. they are counted as troops if attached to a grey hunter squad for the purposes of claiming objectives) which would mean that they stop being elites?

Any help would be appreciated

The unit does still take up a Force Org chart.

The splitting off into units doesn't take place until just before the battle, thus they still count as an Elite choice in your army when building your list. If you do split them all off, then you don't have to worry about them as a Kill Point, which is a little bonus. As you said, they will then be part of the respective units they have gone to lead.

That's what I had assumed. What about the necron Royal court? would the work the same way?

From what it appears, Necrons work very similarly. Really the only difference is that they don't take up an Elite spot, and Royal Courts can only be taken if you already take one of a few specific HQ choices. So you can't just randomly throw a Royal Court into your army. You have to already have some form of Necron Overlord as your HQ choice before you can take them.

After that though, you can split them off to lead specific squads exactly like Wolf Guard work.

Not 'exactly' like Wolf Guard.

Only one Wolf Guard can be added to a space wolves unit to act as pack leader no matter how many wolf guard units you have.

With the Crypteks, and Lords you can have one per court attached to a squad. So if you have two Royal Courts then you could attach one model from each court to a single warrior (or whatever) unit.

Same basic mechanic with a small twist, but that twist can be significant!

Also remember that you may write the list with the idea of attaching them in mind, but you don't have to if you look at your opponents army and decide it would be beneficial to keep them together as their own unit instead. Just a little bit of tactical flexibility to keep in mind.

On the same topic, does each cryptec count as a killpoint? or would each court count as a killpoint? In addition, because the royal court does not have the "pack leaders" rule:

Cryptec joins warriors. all warriors die, only crpytec alive. Can he claim objectives? A wolf guard in the same situation would be able to.

It is a bit unclear in the codex and the GW faq doesn't really cover it. So here is the INAT faq's take on the matter. This is of course not 'official', but it makes sense and in general is how the Barn would rule it since we defer to the INAT for these sticky situations


◊NEC.90A.01 – Q: If a member of a Royal Court has
joined a unit of Troops, does that unit cease to be a
scoring unit? And does the Royal Court member
cease to count as a HQ model?
A: When a member of the Royal Court model joins another
unit, he becomes part of that unit for all intents and
purposes. For instance, a Cryptek that leads a Troops unit
would be able to claim an objective even if the rest of his
unit is wiped out. He would also still be able to deploy in a
mission that only allows Troops units to be deployed. This
also applies to the calculation of kill points and victory
points. For example, I have a 5 man Royal Court of Crypteks
and I split 2 of them off to lead Warrior units. My opponent
would score one kill point if he kills off all 3 of the Crypteks
remaining in the Royal Court. He doesn't need to kill all 5 of
the Crypteks to get that kill point, as the other 2 Crypteks
are now part of other squads. Conversely, because the
Crypteks are now part of those squads, he would not score
a kill point for killing those squads unless he kills ALL of the
models in those squads, including the attached Cryptek
models [clarification].

No offense ericbtjr, but that response does not clarify. Especially because the official necron FAQ was posted in 2012 and the space wolves FAQ (in which the clarification of the leaders of the pack rule is published) was on produced in 2011. I would assume that they could have consulted the wolf FAQ when making the necron FAQ. Though the explanation you provided may just be a reasonable guess

I'm confused. This specifically addresses the exact questions you asked in a very clear and concise manner. What are you still confused about?

If the problem is that you are looking for an 'official' answer then you are just plain out of luck as there is no official ruling on this from games workshop. I provided this as a reasonable and widely accepted way of how the rule would work. Maybe in their next FAQ update they will answer it, but until then we have the INAT faq, make up your own house ruling for it, or dice it off with your opponent.

There's no official way to play it, as GW hasn't ruled on it in an official manner. All we have to go by then, is either a house rule, or an outside rules source. That's where the INAT comes in. while I don't agree with all their rulings, I like having it available as they do make a ruling on almost any issue there is. And a good amount of thought and logic goes into their rules determinations.

I believe eric's quote does actually answer all your questions. They were the following I think:

1. Does each cryptek count as a killpoint? I say no, as does the ruling. He becomes part of the unit, so basically just another squad member for whatever unit he joins.

2. The court would count as a killpoint if members were still in it. If you assign them all away though, well no unit == no killpoint.

3. I'd say he can claim objectives. It seems to me the intent of the rule is that he becomes a part of the unit that he joins, thus if in a troops unit, can score objectives.

Arander and ericbtjr:

I would like to formally retract my previous statement. I was frustrated with the inadequacy of the GW FAQ and took out my frustration on you two. Neither of you were in a position to alter or edit the GW FAQ and I should not have vented my frustration on you. Looking through what you both said (and what GW has given me to work with) the only logical explanation is that cryptecs and lords from the royal court should be treated exactly like wolf guard.
Again, i'd like to apologize for being a dick to Arandrer, ericbtjr, and anyone who has read this thread.

In the name of Russ!

No worries at all. We all get pissed off at GW for writing piss poor rules. I'm sure we've all been in your shoes more than a few times.

No worries! In fact I was a bit worried I may have come off as a bit of a douche there myself

Y'all are great. I'm lgad no one was upset. I hope that no one who reads this thread was upset with us. BTW, Where did the INAT FAQ's come from? are they opinion help by the majority of players?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_H ... e_INAT_FAQ

That should give you all the info you need!