Power of the Machine Spirit

Arander · **Joined:** Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:32 pm **Posts:** 716

John brought up this question in another thread, and we've agreed that the question hasn't been settled completely. Thus allow me to quote the questions and responses here. Feel free to discuss and offer up your own viewpoints.

JohnRCS wrote:

2) Why isn't my machine spirit resolved as if it were a second unit?

As I read the argument above, I must determine the target for the machine spirit AND the crew MUST be selected BEFORE combat is resolved. I do not see that. If I had two tanks, I can certainly fire at "unit A", then resolve the entire shooting phase before deciding whether or not I select the target for "unit A". In other words, if I kill off "unit A", then there is no reason to shoot at it.

The same scenario still applies to my land raider. The SM codex (p. 81) does not specify that I must select a target for both the machine spirit AND the crew before either resolves combat. Based on the discussion above, as well as the rules, I CAN wait for combat to be completely resolved for the crew BEFORE selecting a target for the machine spirit. In other words, if the crew kills off "unit A", there would be no reason for me to have the machine spirit also shoot at "unit A". If they are not resolved separately, then if the crew weapons fill off the target unit, then the machine spirit's shooting phase is wasted because it is NOT allowed to select a different target (since it was determined above that the machine spirit combat MUST be resolved with the crew combat).

I have been through the INAT FAQ and it does not address what unit the machine spirit can target and when it must select the target. It also does not address whether the crew and machine spirit can only attack the same unit when it has declared such BEFORE shooting begins. I know special rules allow other types of units allow units to select two targets. Does anyone know if those rules demand the selection of targets before the first unit is attacked?

Hikaru-119 wrote:

2. It is a part of that vehicle. It is like a long fangs squad splitting fire. They must determine what they are going to shoot at before either of those rolls are made because it is all one unit. This is my understanding of it.

JohnRCS wrote:

Where can this be found? I have been looking through the rulebook and codices I have and could not find anything like that. Is that in the rules or are you guessing that is your interpretation of the rules? The machine spirit rule does not give any indication that this is the case. As I have not been able to find it anywhere else, I have not been able to find anything similar, but I have only the Space Marine and Space Wolves Codex, as well as the large rulebook.

P. 28 of the Space Wolves Codex describes "Fire Control". This ability allows the squad to split fire between two targets, as long as the squad leader is alive and has not fired. It specifically states that the player must designate which models will be shooting at which target. In this case, I see that it is clear that both targets must be selected in advance. I see no such wording for the machine spirit. As I interpret it, the machine spirit is effectively operating as a second unit.

Arander wrote:

John, as stated, a unit must do all of it's shooting at one time. The Power of the Machine Spirit wargear only allows the unit to target a different unit with 1 of it's guns. It in no way mentions being able to fire out of sequence. Page 15 starts the section on shooting, and states how to resolve a units firing. You resolve all shots before moving on to the next unit. Thus in this situation, you would resolve all of the vehicles's shots on the unit, at which point the player would allocate wounds and roll for saves/remove models. Page 58 further clarifies how vehicles shoot, explaining how to measure line of sight and range from the guns. A vehicle however, still follows the standard rules for shooting, just like every other unit in the game.

There are the pertinant questions and responses. Feel free to offer up your opinion on what the proper use of the wargear is.

Shermanj8 · **Joined:** Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:39 pm **Posts:** 59

My opinion would definitely be that it does not modify the firing sequence (since it's rules doesnt say anything along those lines). It simply allows the vehicle to fire one more weapon than normal, and/or to fire one weapon at a different target than the rest of the weapons on the vehicle. It makes no reference to being able to fire at a different time than the rest of the weapons, or that a unit taking wounds from it needs to allocate them differently than under normal circumstances.

ductvader · **Joined:** Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:13 pm **Posts:** 792

I think the key phrase here is that "it follows the normal rules for shooting"

If a Land Raider Machine Spirits a weapon to shoot at something else...the land raider is still one unit shooting at two targets...

If the Land Raider shoots at a target and machine spirits the weapon to shoot at the same unit...then all wounds must be allocated from all of the firing as per "normal rules for shooting"

The problem that arises obviously is shooting all but one weapon...to wait and see if that did the job...and then deciding to shoot the last weapon to help put on the hurt...its a problem as wound allocation should have already happened for the first shooting.

But I view it like this...a unit of marines can't fire bolters into a unit...have their enemy roll the wounds off...and then decide to shoot a heavy bolter from the same unit...

You shoot everything you are going to shoot from your unit at an enemy unit at one time...or at least...before your enemy starts rolling saves.

Todda · **Joined:** Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:15 pm **Posts:** 83

I also was talking to him about this... Basically because they do not specify anything different in his codex (space Marines) there are no special rules for firing restrictions on machine spirit. However the basic rules clearly states that all fire from a unit is handled together. This means that if he wants to shoot the machine spirit gun at the same target unit then they must be done together. This only makes a difference when you have mixed model units (more so with multi-wound ones).

Now he did point out that you can actually fire a unit an enemy unit and if you did not do enough damage you can pick a second unit to fire at the same unit. He kind of wants to be able to do this with his machine spirit. I would say he could wait unit after the wounds are allocated to decide if he wants to shoot the machine spirit at the same unit, but once he lets them take their armor saves and remove the casualties it is too late and he must shoot at a different unit. Everything is within the rules this way and he still does have that wait and see option for the Machine Spirit gun, but not wait too long and bypass the limits of wound allocation.

Arander · **Joined:** Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:32 pm **Posts:** 716

Todda wrote:

Now he did point out that you can actually fire a unit an enemy unit and if you did not do enough damage you can pick a second unit to fire at the same unit. He kind of wants to be able to do this with his machine spirit. I would say he could wait unit after the wounds are allocated to decide if he wants to shoot the machine spirit at the same unit, but once he lets them take their armor saves and remove the casualties it is too late and he must shoot at a different unit. Everything is within the rules this way and he still does have that wait and see option for the Machine Spirit gun, but not wait too long and bypass the limits of wound allocation.

While it is true that you can fire a second unit at the original target if you did not do enough damage, this situation is slightly different. A vehicle unit, waiting until after the wounds are allocated to fire an additional weapon, breaks the steps laid out in the shooting section. They are as follows:

1. Check line of sight and pick a target
2. Check range
3. Roll to hit
4. Roll to wound
5. Take Saving throws
6. Remove casualties

If someone were to wait until after the wounds are allocated (which is stated to happen during step 5), then no more weapons can be fired. A unit has to abide by the steps when shooting weapons. The target of the weapons using the machine spirit rules should be decided in step 1, and follow the same steps as the main weapons firing.

Look at this example. A standard Land raider shoots at a squad of obliterators right in front of the vehicle. 3 heavy bolter shots and 1 lascannon might be enough to finish them off, and there is a defiler behind the unit that is a tempting target. Is it really fair for someone to allocate the shooting of all the weapons at the obliterators, wait to see if they die, and then decide to instead shoot the machine-spirited lascannon at the defiler? I have a feeling a lot of people would have a problem with that.

JohnRCS · **Posted:** Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:27 pm

Arander wrote:

Look at this example. A standard Land raider shoots at a squad of obliterators right in front of the vehicle. 3 heavy bolter shots and 1 lascannon might be enough to finish them off, and there is a defiler behind the unit that is a tempting target. Is it really fair for someone to allocate the shooting of all the weapons at the obliterators, wait to see if they die, and then decide to instead shoot the machine-spirited lascannon at the defiler? I have a feeling a lot of people would have a problem with that.

That is exactly the kind of scenario I was thinking was in order (allowed). Now that you put the example so plainly, I can see where that would not be fair or correct. I concede the debate--the target for the crew and the machine spirit must be picked before shooting for the Land Raider starts and if the same unit is picked for both, all of the saves are rolled together.

I appreciate everyone's input on the subject!

1. Check line of sight and pick a target for crew and a second target for machine spirit (if not shooting at the same unit)
2. Check range to both targets
3. Roll to hit against both targets
4. Roll to wound against both targets
5. Take Saving throws against both targets
6. Remove casualties from both targets

The Battle Barn

Power of the Machine Spirit

Who is online